NCAA Athlete to SWAT Negotiator & Cancer Warrior Terry Tucker

Summary

Leadership for me is about understanding the mission and either working with people or yourself to accomplish that mission. Terry Tucker, a former NCAA Division I basketball player and SWAT hostage negotiator, shares four truths for leading an uncommon and extraordinary life: control your mind, embrace the pain, leave a positive impact, and never quit. These truths can be applied in both personal and professional settings. Terry's book, Sustainable Excellence, outlines 10 principles for leading an uncommon and extraordinary life, including thinking with your mind instead of fears and insecurities, becoming the person you want to be, and understanding the importance of love. Terry's experience in law enforcement, particularly as a negotiator, taught him the power of effective communication and empathy. He encourages listeners to live their lives to the fullest and not wait for life to come to them.

Takeaways

• Leadership is about understanding the mission and working with others or yourself to accomplish it.
• Four truths for leading an uncommon and extraordinary life: control your mind, embrace the pain, leave a positive impact, and never quit.
• Apply these truths in both personal and professional settings to achieve sustainable success.
• Terry Tucker's book, Sustainable Excellence, outlines 10 principles for leading an uncommon and extraordinary life.
• Effective communication and empathy are essential in leadership, as demonstrated by Terry's experience as a negotiator in law enforcement.
• Live life to the fullest and don't wait for life to come to you.

Sound Bites

• "Leadership for me is about understanding the mission and either working with people or yourself to accomplish that mission."
• "Most people think with their fears and their insecurities instead of using their minds."
• "Embracing the pain, but suffering is optional."

Chapters

00:00
Understanding the Mission: The Essence of Leadership

10:46
Four Truths for Leading an Uncommon and Extraordinary Life

13:10
Embracing the Pain and Making a Choice

18:25
Never Quit: Perseverance and Motivation

21:45
Sustainable Excellence: Principles for an Extraordinary Life

25:35
The Power of Effective Communication and Empathy

29:30
Living Life to the Fullest: Don't Wait for Life to C

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Transcript

0:00

Leadership for me is about understanding the mission and either working with people or yourself to accomplish that mission. I'm like, want read about what the Marine Corps does to teach leadership to its people. We're born full. We're born with everything we need to be successful. However you determine that word, what that means for you, already inside of us, we just need to find it, pull it out and use it for our benefit. Having that culture, that atmosphere that allows people to say, I've identified a problem. Something that you talk about, is the four truths to help others lead an uncommon and extraordinary life. Can you walk us through these truths and explain how they can be applied in both personal and professional settings? Sure. So I have these four truths on a Post -it note here in my office. So I see them multiple times during the day and they constantly get reinforced for me. And they're just one sentence each. And inside his wallet was a scrap piece of paper on which Mr. Rogers had written four simple words. Life is for service. Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Just do one thing every day that scares you, that makes you nervous, that makes you uncomfortable, that's potentially embarrassing. It doesn't have to be a big thing. One of the things I'm most proud about in my life is that I never let my dream You know, I never let my purpose just say. Welcome to another episode of Leadership Talks. I'm your host, Martin Rowinski CEO of Boardsi And today we have an extraordinary guest with us, Terry Tucker. Terry is a former NCAA Division I basketball player, SWAT hostage negotiator, and a cancer warrior for the past 12 years. He is also the author of Sustainable Excellence. Ten principles to leading your oncoming and extraordinary life. Terry, welcome to the show. Well, Martin, thanks for having me on. I'm really looking forward to talking with you today. I'm excited, too. So, Terry, your your background is pretty diverse from being a division one basketball player in your young days to SWAT hostage negotiator. You don't, you know, often talk to people that have done that. And now a motivational speaker and author have done over 600 podcasts. Can you share a little bit about your journey and how these experiences have shaped your perspective on leadership? Yeah, I mean, if you look at my resume, it kind of looks like a Super Bowl went off in the room. You know, it's just kind of bouncing all over the place. So, yeah, I was fortunate enough to play college basketball, which was a tremendous experience on leadership, on growth, on what it takes to a good teammate and things like that. And then when I graduated from college, I actually wanted to follow in my grandfather's footsteps. My grandfather was a Chicago police officer from 1924 to 1954. And in 1933, he was shot in the line of duty with his own gun. was not a serious injury. He was shot in the ankle. But my dad, who was an infant at the time, always remembered the stories my grandmother told of that knock on the door of Mrs. Tucker, grab your son. come with us. And so when I expressed an interest in going into law enforcement, my dad was absolutely not. You're going to college, you're going to major in business, you're going to get out, get a great job, get married, have 2.4 kids and live happily ever after. But that's the life my father wanted me to lead. That wasn't the life I felt I was supposed to lead. So when I graduated from college, my father was dying of cancer. So I had really my first major adult decision. I could have said, sorry, dad. You know what? I'm going to go blaze my own trail, do my own thing, or out of love and respect for you, I will do what you want me to do. And so my first two jobs were in business. I was in the marketing department of Wendy's International, the hamburger chain and their corporate office in the marketing department. And then I went to work for the hospital that cared for my grandfather and my father. And then I made that major pivot in my life. And I sort of joke, I did what every good son did. waited till my father passed away and then I followed my own dreams. That's, that's quite the change, but very respectful of you to do. I, one thing we have in common, except it was my mom, my mom. So I grew up in Poland when it was communist. Well, my mom was just a little baby. She got shot in the leg and it was friendly fire too. was one of the Polish warriors dropped a gun and it went off and went right through her leg, ripped it apart. So pretty crazy. Well, you've faced some significant challenges, including 12 year bottle with cancer. And now I just learned your dad obviously passed away from that. How has this experience influenced your approach to leadership and self-improvement? think leadership for me is about understanding the mission and either working with people or yourself. to accomplish that mission. And if you're working with others, it's how are you supporting those people? I heard a statistic recently that 163 of the Fortune 500 companies are run by members that were former members of the United States Marine Corps, which kind of like, when I heard that, like, wanna read about what the Marine Corps does to teach leadership to its people. And so I've read several books on it and I feel kind of the same way that they do. Leadership is about service and life should be about service. I don't know if you knew there was a children's television show host, kind of a very famous guy, books written about him. was a movie made about him that Tom Hanks starred in by the name of Fred Rogers. And Mr. Rogers on his television show, Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, educated so many young people, including me, on public television. And when Mr. Rogers died in 2003, believe it was, his family was going through his effects and they found his wallet. And inside his wallet was a scrap piece of paper on which Mr. Rogers had written four simple words, life is for service. And Martin, think so many people, and I've seen this and my guess is you have too. So many people feel that they're born empty. And that when they get out of school and get into life, whatever that looks like for them, that their job then is to fill up their empty self. You know, I've got to get the greatest job, make the most money, drive the nicest car, live in the nicest house, and I'll haul the latest gadgets and gizmos. And what I found is it's just the opposite. We're born full. We're born with everything we need to be successful. However you determine that word, what that means for you, already inside of us, we just need to find pull it out and use it for our benefit. So I think leadership is not about filling ourselves up. Leadership is about emptying ourselves out with our unique gifts and talents, certainly for the betterment of ourselves, but also for the betterment of our families, of our friends, of our communities, and of our countries. And I think that's something that really has gotten solidified for me as I've gone through this 12 year battle with cancer. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. you know, there's, always see two mains. I mean, there's a lot of styles of leadership, but the two big ones that always stick out is the effective leaders that are literally involved digging in. They don't mind jumping in, doing the hard work. You know, I always say, if I can't do it, how can I expect anybody else to do it? And then you got the ego. I like to call it that ego leadership You know, it's, don't know if you want to say like a general, but just screaming orders and, know, they think they have respect, but behind their back, they don't. and I always truly believe if you're the effective leader involved, you care, you care about the culture. The more you give, the more you get back. And I think that's, mean, I think that applies to life in I agree. And I think part of that is being curious. know, asking people. mean, I'm sure you've experienced this. I know I have when I was in the business world. You know, there'd be a problem and everybody'd be sitting around a conference table and the boss walks in and outlines the problem. And then it can go one of two ways. Either the boss says, well, here's how I see the problem being solved, but I want to go around the table and ask your opinions. Well, nobody's going to say anything different than what the boss has already said. I think a better way to handle that is for the boss to come in, outline the problem, and then be quiet and say, okay, you folks who are in the trenches, you folks who are dealing with our customers, what do you think is a better way or the best way to handle this problem? And being allowed to give your opinion and without any consequences of somebody saying, no, you don't know what you're talking about. You shouldn't do having that culture, that atmosphere that allows people to say, I've identified a problem. But that's the other thing about a leader. People come to you, I've got to, there's a problem. What I like is people that come to me when I'm a leader with a problem and a solution. We can all talk about the problems. That doesn't really do anybody any good. If you see a problem, come to me with a solution as well. 100%, 100%. And speaking of, not only solutions, but something that you talk about, which is the four truths to help others lead an uncommon and extraordinary life. Can you walk us through these truths and explain how they can be applied in both personal and professional settings? Sure. So I have these four truths on a Post -it note here in my office. So I see them multiple times during the day and they constantly get reinforced for me. And they're just one sentence each. So the first one is control your mind or your mind is going to control you. And I'll illustrate that with a story. When I was in college, I went to a military school in South Carolina. And one year we had a president who was a vice admiral in the Navy and had retired. And he was a prisoner of war back in the 1960s and 70s during the Vietnam conflict that the United States was in. He was a fighter pilot. He was shot down. spent eight years in captivity and actually won the Medal of Honor, our nation's highest military award. And I remember being in an event with him and somebody asked him, who were the people that survived that brutality, that torture, that abuse? And he said, well, let me tell you who didn't survive. He said, it wasn't the big, strong, tough guys who thought they could handle any kind of abuse or torture. And the next thing he said really surprised He said the other group that didn't survive were the optimists. And he said those were the people that thought they would be let go or rescued by Thanksgiving or Christmas and Easter. And when those holidays came and went and they weren't released, he said those people died of a broken heart. He said the people who survived that ugliness were the people who understood what they could control and controlled it. And he said, according to Stockdale, Admiral Stockdale, that the only thing they could control was their breathing and the thoughts in their minds. Everything else was at the discretion of the enemy. And Martin, that's where I think people get in trouble. We try to control things that are outside our control. And one of the things I recommend to people is if you get in that situation where you're anxious, you're worried, just take a piece of paper and write down every single thing that you're upset about or you're worried about or you're concerned about. Put it all on a piece of and then go through and cross out everything that you don't have control over, everything that's outside your purview, and then concentrate on the things that you are able to make a difference on. So I think that's an illustration of control your mind. Any questions on that, or do you want me to go on to the next one? Yeah, next one, which is I believe embracing the pain, but I'll let you talk. Sure. So embracing the pain, We're all going to experience pain in our lives. And it doesn't have to be, you know, cancer pain or anything like that. It doesn't even have to be any kind of an illness. It can be as simple as breaking up with your boyfriend or your girlfriend or, you know, the plane you're leaving on to go on vacation gets, the flight gets canceled or somebody else gets the job you believe you deserve. Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Suffering is what you do with that pain. Do you use it to make you a stronger and more determined individual or do you wallow in it and feel sorry for yourself and want other people to feel sorry for you? There's great writer, a great American writer by the name of Ernest Hemingway who wrote a book called Farewell to Arms. And he has a great line in that book. And the line is this, life breaks everyone. And afterward, many are stronger at the broken places. And I love that line because life will, life will beat you to your knees. Somebody, you know, close to you will die. You'll unexpectedly get let go from your job. You'll find out you have a chronic or a terminal illness. Life is going to beat you to your knees, but can you keep going forward and become stronger from it? So how do you do that? And one of the things I recommend to people, and I do this every day of my life, is do one thing every day that scares you, that makes you nervous, that makes you uncomfortable. that's potentially embarrassing. It doesn't have to be a big thing. But if you do those small things every day, when the big disasters in life hit us, and they hit all of us, you will be so much more resilient to handle that pain than people who never do anything, never challenge themselves, never get outside their comfort zones. So that's the second truth. I cannot agree more. I've been, I know everybody has, but I've been through some pretty big struggles and blessed to be married to a wife that understands exactly what you just explained. Cause we lost my stepson, but it was her son when he was seven years old, losing a parent, which I also lost my mom, but losing a child doesn't compare. So sorry for pointing that out, but just Yeah, be around positive people. That's what I'll add to that too. Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine. I've always said there should be an 11th commandment that says no child dies before their parent. I should have been. Yeah, I can't imagine how horrible that must have been for the two of you. So my condolences. Thank you. It's been 14 years, but thank you. So I don't, I mean, my dad's been dead since the 1980s and I miss them every single day. Doesn't change. So number three. Yeah. Control or excuse me. What you leave behind is what you weave in the hearts of other people. And then I look at more as a legacy type of truth. And I love the old stoic philosophers who used to talk about momenta more, which means remember death. Remember that we're going to die because understanding that our time here on this earth is finite, that we only have a certain period of time, I think energizes people, gets people excited, saying, hey, I want to live my life. I want to get out there. I want to do things that basically I was put here to do. And through my cancer journey, I had my leg amputated in 2020 during the middle of the COVID pandemic and also found I had tumors in my lungs. And I went with my wife when I found this out. to the mortuary and to the cemetery and to the church. And I planned my funeral. And because I do podcasts like this, or I speak in person about motivation and the need to keep moving forward, I actually got some brush back from people who commented that somehow doing that was in some way defeatist. And I had to remind these people that the last time I checked, we're all gonna die. Don't think anybody's working on a cure for life right now. You know, every one of us is going to but not every one of us is really going to live. And I heard a Native American Blackfoot proverb years ago that I absolutely love, and it goes like this. When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life in such a way so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. That's what I want. That's what I'm looking for. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to hasten my demise in any way. But death is not nearly as scary for me because I believed I found the purposes I was supposed to do in life and I lived those purposes. Yeah, I love it. And that was number three, right? Did I lose track? Okay. I'm a, I'm a lay up the fourth one for you. Your fourth truth is about never quitting. How do you, and that reason I want to lay it up is because I know you've had the cancer struggle and now I know more details, which mind blowing. but how do you maintain motivation and perseverance and how can leaders instill this mindset in their teams? Yeah, that's a great question. So as long as you don't quit, you can never be defeated. I think this is pretty self -explanatory, but the way this resonates with me is that someday my pain is going to end. It may end through surgery. It may end through the development of some new medication. Quite frankly, it may end when I die. But if I quit, if I give up, if I give into pain, then pain will always be a part of my life. And there's a great story, and it's a true story, that occurred back in the 1950s at Johns Hopkins University. And it was a story about a professor who did an experiment with rats. And he took rats and he put them in a tank of water that was over their And he wanted to see how long the average rat could tread water. And the average rat treaded water for about 15 minutes. And just as those rats were getting ready to sink and drown, he reached in, grabbed them, pulled them out, dried them off, and let them rest for a while. And then he put those exact same rats in that exact same tank of water again. And the second time around, on average, those rats treaded water for 60 hours. Now think about that. The first time 15 minutes and it wasn't like your business was going to fail or you're going to flunk a test or your marriage was going to fail. You were going to die. Your life was going to be over. And the second time around 60 hours, which told me two things. Number one, the importance of hope in our lives that if you know you're doing the right thing, if you have the motivation, the discipline, the good habits, maybe not today, maybe not this month, maybe not even this year, but more than likely at some point in time. you'll get to where you want to be. And the second thing it taught me was just how much more our physical bodies can handle than we ever thought they could. I mean, don't get me wrong. I think everybody has a breaking point, but I think that breaking point is so much further down the road. We quit, we give up, we give in, and this kind of comes back full circle to the first point about controlling your mind. We do that because our brain says, Hey, this hurts or it's uncomfortable or I don't like it. Stop doing this. And we listen to our brain. If we can push through that, just like a marathon runner, always they always talk about they hit the wall at some point where I just don't think I can go on. If you can push through that and you can push through that, then all of a sudden you get that second energy. You get that another burst of energy that allows you to keep going forward. So in those times when you don't think you can, do those uncomfortable things every single day. And those will allow you to push forward when you get those uncomfortable and adverse things happening in your life. Yep, very, very true. And now I would love to jump in if you don't mind. And we'd love to talk a little bit about your book, Sustainable Excellence, which outlines 10 principles for leading an uncommon and extraordinary life. Can you share a few of those principles and how they can be applied to achieve sustainable success and leadership? Sure. So each chapter in the book is a principle or each principles, a chapter, however you want to look at it. But I'll give you some of the ones that I really like. And I mean, I like all of them, but one of the ones that resonates with me and it resonates with me in all honesty, because I've done this in my life and I'm not. I'm not really proud that I have. And the principle is this, most people think with their fears and their insecurities instead of using their minds. And I know I've done that in my life. I know I wanted to start a project or get involved in a business and you kind of pull back and you're like, Ooh, wait a minute. Maybe I'm not smart enough, or maybe I don't have enough information or what will people say about me if I fail? That's thinking with our fears and our insecurities. That's not thinking with our minds. And whenever I get the opportunity to speak, especially to young people, I always tell them, if there's something in your heart, something in your soul that you believe you're supposed to do, but it scares you, go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things that you are going to regret are not going to be those things that you did. They're going to be those things that you didn't do. And by then it's going to be too late to go back and do So that's one principle. The other principle that I really like is that you are the person you're looking to become. And I learned that when I was in the business world, but I still felt I was a police officer. I still felt that's where I was going to be. And honestly, Martin, one of the things I'm most proud about in my life is that I never let my dream die. I never let my purpose just say, you know what? I'm in hospital administration, I'm making good money, I'm not killing myself here. Why don't I just stay here? Because it's comfortable. And I knew that's not what I was supposed to do. And I became a police officer when I was 37 years old, which is pretty late in life to be getting into that kind of a job, that kind of work. But I'm incredibly proud that I did that. And so that's why I feel you are the person you're looking to become. You may not be there yet, but you're acting like it, you're thinking like You're doing things, you're reading books, you're watching programs, master classes, whatever, that's getting you to that point in your life. And I'll give you one more. And I think, I used to think none of these were in any particular order more important than the other. But I think the last one is, and it's the importance of, regardless of what language you have in your life, the most important word in any language is love. And I know especially guys, know, guys don't talk about love. You know, it's not something. That we talk about, it's not, you know, we're not comfortable with that. But when I was growing up in middle school and high school, there was a basketball coach at the University of California at Los Angeles, UCLA, who John Wooden, who was probably one of the most successful coaches of all time. I read his books, I read articles, I read everything. And I remember being at an interview or listening to an interview on television where a sports reporter was talking to him. And I was sitting there with a pad of paper and a pencil and I was writing stuff down. And I was looking for good stuff. I was looking for stuff that I really needed. And the reporter asked him, what's the most important thing that you want your players to learn or understand while they're under your tutelage? And he said, I want my players to understand the importance of love. And as like 13 year old kid, was like, no, come on coach, give me some good X's and O's that I can use as a kid. I wasn't mature enough to understand this. But what he went on to say was, want my players to understand that they need to love themselves. They need to love their teammates and they need to love what they do with their lives. And I didn't get that as a 13 year old kid. I totally understand that now as an adult. And I really do think love is the most important word in any language. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. But yeah, none of us get that at 13. No, that's funny. Are you, I'm curious about one thing before we get to the end, law enforcement and you just brought that up. So I'm actually glad you did, especially you were a negotiator. How do you think that experience contributed to your current work as a motivational speaker and book out there? Like what, what role did that play? I know it was your dream. I'm glad you lived it, but what, what did that evolve into? You know, I look back, you know, and I spent all those years in the business world before I got into law enforcement. And I think absolutely 100 % it taught me about communicating. And I remember when I started as a hostage negotiator, they gave us a formula of how we communicate, how people communicate with each other, not just policemen or anything like that. And the formula was 738 .55. So 7 % of how we communicate a message to each other. are the words that we use. And think how many times you're like, oh, I wish I wouldn't have said that, or I should have said something differently. That's only 7 % of how you deliver a message. 38 % is the tone of voice that you use with that message. And then 55 % of how we deliver a message is our body language and our facial expressions. And the reason we were taught that was because as negotiators, if somebody was barricaded in a room with a gun, We were not in the room with them. were sometimes blocks away talking to them on the phone. And we didn't have the luxury of that 55%. I didn't have the luxury of saying that something to you, Martin, and seeing you kind of roll your eyes like, oh, what an idiot. I can't believe he said that to me. But that was it. So we had to get good about figuring things out, certainly by what people were saying, but also what they weren't saying and how they were saying And one of the ways, and I'll end with this, that we did that is we humanized things. I never would say to you, if I was negotiating with you, Martin, I wouldn't say, you know, I'm Officer Tucker, I'm Sergeant Tucker, but say, I'm Perry, what's your name? And a lot of times you'd get, you don't need to know my name. Okay, what would you like me to call you? And so we're humanizing it. But the other thing is we used what we call tactical empathy. And I think you can today get rid of the word tactical. and just go with the word empathy. And what that means is, okay, Martin, help me to understand where you're coming from. And again, the important word there is understand. If you just murdered three people and I was trying to get you out, I wasn't going to agree with you. I mean, it wasn't like, I totally get it why you killed those three. I wasn't going to say that, but understanding builds trust and trust allows me to get to a point where I can try to change your behavior and come out safely. That's awesome. Terry, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Your journey and insights are incredibly inspiring. But before we wrap up, is there any final message you'd like to share with our listeners? Can I tell you another story? Yeah, absolutely. So when I was young, I was a big fan of Westerns growing up. Western movies, Western television shows. My mom and dad used to let me stay up late and watch Gunsmoke and Bonanza. My favorite was Wild Wild West. 1993, the movie Tombstone came out. It was a huge blockbuster, starred Val Kilmer as a man by the name of John Doc Holliday. And Kurt Russell as a man One of my favorites. Yeah, you've seen it. Kurt Russell starred as a guy by the name of Wyatt Earp. Now, Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp were two living, breathing human beings who walked on the face of the earth. They're just not made up characters for the movie. Now, Doc was called Doc because he was a dentist by trade. But pretty much Doc Holliday was a gunslinger and a card shark. And Wyatt Earp had been some form of a lawman almost his entire life. So these two men from entirely opposite backgrounds formed this very close friendship. And at the end of the movie, Doc Holliday is dying at a hospital in Glenwood Springs, Colorado, which is about three hours from where I live. The real Doc Holliday died at that hospital and he's buried in the Glenwood Springs Cemetery. And Wyatt Earp at this point in his life is destitute. He has no money, he has no job, has no prospects for a job. So every day he comes and the two men play cards to pass the time. And in this almost last scene in the movie, they're talking about what they want out of life. And Doc says, you know, when I was young, I was in love with my cousin, but she joined a convent over the affair, but she's all that I ever wanted. And then he looks at Wyatt and he says, what about you, Wyatt? What do you And Wyatt kind of nonchalantly says, I just want to lead a normal life. And Doc looks at him and says, there's no normal. There's just life. And get out there and live yours. Martin, you and I probably know people. There's probably people out there listening to us that are sort of sitting back and saying, well, you know, when this happens, I'll have a normal life. Or when that occurs, I'll have a successful life. Or when this transpires, I'll have a significant life. What I'd like to leave your listeners with is this. Don't wait. Don't wait for life to come to you. Get out there, find the reason you were put on the face of this earth and there's a reason. Use your unique gifts and talents and live that reason. Because if you do, at the end of your life, I'm gonna promise you two things. Number one, you're gonna be a whole lot happier. And number two, you're gonna have a whole lot more peace in your heart. Great message. Thank you, Terry. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the Leadership Talks. Be sure to check out Terry's book, Sustainable Excellence, and visit his website at motivationalcheck .com. I got that right, right? Yes, you did. Okay. For more information, again, it's motivationalcheck, as in C -H -E -C -K, dot com. And until next time, stay inspired and keep leading with excellence. Thank you, Terry. Thank you, Martin. Thank you for tuning into Leadership Talks. Don't forget to subscribe for more insightful conversations with industry leaders. Your support means a lot to